Photo: Elliot Lee Hazel
Never ask a guy to braid your hair. A new study suggests men feel angry when made to perform a “traditional feminine task” like, apparently, hair braiding. The researcher suggests this is because men are expected to gender perform in ways that women don’t have an equivalent; they must constantly “prove” their masculinity. While it’s not easy equating the ways that sexism effects men and women, rigid gender roles don’t help anyone. But I am writing about this male phenomenon as a woman. And most of my sex positive blogging peers are also female. It seems there is some silent rule: men aren’t allowed to write about sexuality, as though a guy with a sex blog is the intellectual version of a flasher.
But in these sex positive discussions, there is so much I want to hear from the male side. And this is how my series The Man Project was born. I interviewed male sex writers, porn stars and sex educators and asked them what was missing from the discussion about male sexuality.
This is a “best of” of The Man Project, a sampling of my favorite insights about male sexuality. I hope you guys will weigh in on the questions yourself, and continue the discussion below–no matter your gender. Here are insights from: Writer and TV personality Michael Alvear, Asexual activist David Jay, Author Grant Stoddard, Porn stars: Buck Angel, Zak Sabbath and Danny Wylde, Porn director Eon McKai and Erotic Photographer and Writer David Steinberg.
How do you feel about your masculinity? Is this important to you?
David J: I think there’s an interesting cultural struggle around masculinity going on. At least judging by the advertising that’s targeting my demographic, like the Old Spice commercials. There’s this sense that masculinity, as it’s traditionally articulated, is problematic. So, masculinity isn’t something we seriously address. Also, it’s not something that’s presented to us in a serious way, it’s presented to us comically.
So, my friends and I, when we act traditionally masculine, we are both performing and making fun of masculinity–but we aren’t examining it. And we end up expressing our gender that way. It’s not, “I’ve thought a lot of masculinity and other forms of gender expression.” Instead, it’s, “The way I relate to my masculinity is by making fun of masculinity. And other than that, I don’t really know how to deal with it.”
Michael: The one thing that absolutely bugs me in the gay world is the question of, “Are you a top or a bottom?” It’s really, “How masculine are you?” If you want to see how masculinity and femininity are played out in the straight world, you only have to see how it is played out in the gay world. Top and bottom is really nothing but masculine and feminine. In ancient Greece and in Rome, homosexuality was accepted—but only if you were the top. The proscription against homosexuality was not about men having sex with men. It was about men not acting like women.
Why is the sex writing, sex positive sphere dominated by women?
Michael: When I was selected to be the co-host of HBO’s Sex Inspectors, they didn’t come out and say, “We want someone who is gay,” but they did– more or less. I think the idea was if a [straight] guy talks about sex to a woman, there’s a sense that there is a hidden agenda. Which is a nice way of saying, “He is predator-like.”
Grant: We think there’s something gross about reading about a straight guy and his sexual experiences. Women are given great sexual latitude to do a number of different things—bondage, kinks, even lots of different vanilla sex. Men are really sort of reduced to just wanting to fuck something, and that’s it. Sexually, we are forced into a box and not allowed to express ourselves in many more ways than society allows.
David S: I think the critique and developing analysis of women’s sexuality came out of the feminist movement to a large extent. So, that would explain the critique of traditional thinking about women’s sexuality in general. It’s too bad because I think traditional gender roles in sexuality are just as limiting and damaging for men.
There is this idea that male sexuality is different, simpler than female sexuality. It’s just a button to push.Thoughts?
David S: I used to run a workshop on male sexuality for women. One of the most common things that women would ask is, “So I’m with this guy, we have amazing sex and then in the morning, he is like gone.” I think guys think they are just gonna have a fun time. Because sex is as powerful as it is, sometimes a big door opens up inside you. Suddenly, your emotional guts are all over the table. Sex, touch, it is powerful in that way. Suddenly, you are dealing with the fact that you never got touched as a child, suddenly you are dealing with the time something happened and you were embarrassed. Suddenly, all sorts of larger issues, even existential ones leap up, and there you are in the middle of them.
I think women are more prepared for this, less frightened. For some guys, in this deeply intimate exposed place with a person they hardly know, they wake up in the morning and start putting a wall up, really fast. One of the sad things about sex, particularly for men, is that the culture shoves a version of sex down your throat that is just a poor, pale version of what is really possible.
Buck: I think and act and interact totally different from how I did when I was female and had little testosterone in my body. Even though I was a very masculine female. But I was much more sensitive, I cried easier. I looked at things differently, my sexuality. My sex drive was intense for a woman. But I would say it is much more intense now.
Photo: Ryan McGinley
What about male stereotypes like guys being “less in touch with their emotions”?
Eon: In a breakup, for example, I think women have a lot more coping mechanisms that society supports. Men are expected to not care and move on. I don’t know what’s going on at the Moose Lodge and I’m sure that some of those brothers are helping each other out. But in general, it’s hard to help another man emotionally. It’s a pride thing and a societal pressure not to.
Danny: There has been so much discussion over how women are treated, or how women feel when they perform in pornographic scenes. But heterosexual men seem to have been left out of this discussion. Maybe even gay men too. “How do male performers feel about performing in sex scenes?” It’s not a question often asked. I think it’s just assumed we want to fuck anything that’s put in front of us. I assure you that’s not the case.
photo: Nicole Lesser
What about the one, guys are just “thinking with their dicks”?
Zak: So, guys can be extraordinarily smart in order to get their dick to have what they want. Like, right now we’re talking on a telephone. You’ve got Skype. My guess is that both of those things were invented by guys who thought that if they could invent something cool, it would make them rich and famous and get them laid. So Alexander Graham Bell wasn’t maybe thinking with his dick but thinking really helped his dick out.
Women are a complicated target. You have to really do all kinds of crazy shit in order to impress them or to get them to know you. And so, you know, men invent computers and airplanes and socks and healthcare because, like, you can’t have sex with women when they’re dead! We’ve really got to keep them all alive.
Eon: In my youth, the idea was that no girl would want to look at a dick—the dick is just lucky to be here. But I think both men and women want to be ambitious and explore the world in a similar way. [What’s missing for men is] the inability to make the one partner both of these things, wife and sexual adventurer.
What is missing from the discussion around male sexuality?
Grant: I want to suck a dick. I don’t want to conform to a lifestyle or necessarily move to Chelsea. I just want to suck a big one. If women [want to experiment], it’s cool, but for guys it’s, “Oh, so you’re gay?”
Also, here is what I want to see changed: the way men use language. They talk about banging girls, finger-banging or fucking. It’s something mechanical that sort of gets done. I hope for them it’s actually a little more complex than that, a little more considered. But anything other than some sort of Anglo-Saxon term for what you do to a woman as a man is viewed as somehow weird, or creepy, or it makes you a sensualist.
David J: The message we are getting today is that our sexuality is problematic and destructive. I think that culturally there aren’t enough symbols of non-destructive sexuality for men to really adopt.
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I will make a proper comment, but I just wanted to say I have read most of your interviews on the Man Project and I really loved them. But my favourite was with Michael, especially when he said:
Michael: The one thing that absolutely bugs me in the gay world is the question of, “Are you a top or a bottom?” It’s really, “How masculine are you?” If you want to see how masculinity and femininity are played out in the straight world, you only have to see how it is played out in the gay world. Top and bottom is really nothing but masculine and feminine. In ancient Greece and in Rome, homosexuality was accepted—but only if you were the top. The proscription against homosexuality was not about men having sex with men. It was about men not acting like women.
I love Michael! I want to send him a fan letter!
Thanks QRG! And just for you, here are a few unpublished gems (I think I felt they were a bit too controversial at the time) from my interview with Michael.
RW: What about that whole stereotype of guys being less in touch with their emotions?
Michael Alvear: I think it is true, certainly compared to women who are entirely too much in touch with their emotions. It’s sometimes like, men don’t know where their emotions are and women are fondling them.
And here too you fall into a trap of saying all men are cavemen. But I think it would be more honest to say that men dont express emotions the way women do. That doesnt mean our interior life is barren. Just because we cant access our feelings like women does not mean that it is not there.
RW: Does this show up in sexuality as well?
Michael Alvear: I think so. In sex, I think it would be false to say men just wanna fuck you cuz they are trying to show their love and feelings. What is making love? It is something a woman does when a guy is fucking her. Okay, okay, but there is truth in that. I think that sex is an expression of love, it is the desire to be close to somebody. Men feel this as much as women, but we dont really see the difference in holding or kissing or fucking, its all part of the spectrum. Where as women will cut it off.
I can dig through all of the transcripts for stuff like this, readers, if you want to see more!
I often joke that my writing is “emo porn”and the response is often, “but it is emo porn!”
One insecurity that pops up when I’m writing is the idea that I must be writing smut in order to get laid. Why else would I write erotica? But while I love positive feedback, especially from people I find attractive, it’s something I have to get over. I write erotica because I enjoy writing erotica. I also happen to think we need more men writing about sex from an intellectual and emotional place of honesty. But I still have to figure out if I just expect people to find me creepy or if folks actually do.
What interests me most are those questions that men often struggle with but don’t voice well or often: What does it feel like when I can’t get hard? Do I always want the sex I’m having? Why do I sometimes look forward to having HAD sex more than having it? What does it say about my masculinity if I say no to something? Shouldn’t I want to do that?
I’ve found that as soon as these questions get thrown on the table, most of us do open up. Most of us have thought about our emotions and responses, but don’t have a place to voice those answers.
Thanks for making one of those safe spaces!
Yeah, I think with male sex writers there is this hurdle to get over called “I promise I am not a creep” which is pretty fucked. I love these questions:
“Do I always want the sex I’m having? Why do I sometimes look forward to having HAD sex more than having it? What does it say about my masculinity if I say no to something?”
I have this theory that women get away with a lot more violence and pushing consent vounadries because, well, they are women. And not to get all PUA with equating women to animals, but it reminds of a chihuahua, a cute cuddly little guy that you can just scoop up if he barks. But the bark, the bite is still very real. Women can push boundaries of consent just as much as men but it seems this isn’t reported as much. And further, if guys do talk about it, there is something wrong with THEM not the woman.
There is something that irks me about this in particular–gray areas of consent–it seems that the way we discuss it keeps sex on a pedestool (and esp PIV sex) and women as fragile virginal creatures/men as horndogs.
How do you feel about your masculinity? Is this important to you?
It’s importance is derived from the feeling that I would be lost without it. I feel like I’ve worked so much to build this ego and persona that fits this masculine role. If I left it behind I really don’t know how I’d act to be quite honest.
Why is the sex writing, sex positive sphere dominated by women?
From my personal experience, I’d have to say it’s fear. It’s generally accepted that women’s sexuality is multi-faceted, sexy, and inviting. With a man, for some reason it always comes off as predatory, or not “right”. When I say not right, I mean if you want to do anything more than “traditional” sex you’re a freak, and you lose your masculinity. Say you have a female S/O who wears a strapon , no matter how many times you penetrate her, once she penetrates you, you lose all of manhood. Coupled with the fact that people always think you have a hidden agenda, the “you know how men are” mentality, you don’t want to bring too much attention to yourself. It’s actually quite terrifying. Even now, when I write posts I always wonder if I’ll be taken seriously, or will the women who visit my blog just think I’m a creep? I always tip toe around sex, even if it’s the topic at hand to avoid people looking at me differently.
What about male stereotypes like guys being “less in touch with their emotions”?
At least with the emotions, I think it’s more that we have no real idea how to express them. From a young age, me and my friends were taught to be tough boys. Don’t be wimp, don’t cry, etc. Then one day you grow up, and you have these emotions and zero clue with how to express them constructively. The worst part is, most of your friends are the same way, so it’s like talking to wall.
what an awesome article. Really great comments, too.
Guy New York: You pose some really, really great questions. Really. You should write about your answers to these questions, I would love reading it.
I think open discussions of sexuality would help everyone, both men and women. I wish more men explored their sexuality outside of following stereotypes and “being a man.” I’m so glad the men here were willing to be open and honest, and I’m so glad you asked them these questions, Rachel.
Rachel: ugh, gray areas of consent. I’m not even sure how we begin to deal with this issue. I agree with you, I think it just victimizes women even more. I think having sex when you don’t want to does not make you a rape victim. Sexually abused? Possibly. I think being FORCED to have sex when you don’t want to makes you a rape victim. I think it would be a lot more helpful to everyone involved if we started questioning the real reasons why people have sex when they really don’t want to, and why so many people are willing to have sex with people who are not that interested.
And good point, bringing up how often men fall into the gray area of consent. When a man gets wasted and has sex he’s a stud, when a woman does so its sad. Again, we just paint men as dogs and women as victims. The real questions should be why anyone would want to have sex with someone who is too drunk to be competent, man or woman, and why we have to drink to such oblivion in order to be close to others. Also, is there a difference between getting someone drunk so they will sleep with you, or sleeping with someone who is really drunk?
But I digress. This was an awesome article, keep them coming. I would love to hear anything guys have to say in the sexuality discussion, they are an obvious and greatly missed piece of the puzzle.
this was wonderfully interesting to read, in particular
“Michael: The one thing that absolutely bugs me in the gay world is the question of, “Are you a top or a bottom?” It’s really, “How masculine are you?” If you want to see how masculinity and femininity are played out in the straight world, you only have to see how it is played out in the gay world. Top and bottom is really nothing but masculine and feminine. In ancient Greece and in Rome, homosexuality was accepted—but only if you were the top. The proscription against homosexuality was not about men having sex with men. It was about men not acting like women.”
I’ve always found it funny on gay ‘dating’ sites that the men on there are always so keen to describe themselves as ‘straight acting’. I always find that frustrating because of everything it implies. It really is quite a fucked up thing to be describing yourself as. A deep rooted insecurity about your sexuality at the very least. I’m not trying to turn this from a discussion about male sexuality into a discussion about gay guys sexuality as I do sometimes feel in a general way it is more approved to be discussed than hetero guys sexuality. But I do actually feel it goes the same for straight guys. The whole ‘straight acting’ thing; whether gay or straight, if he likes something that is more ‘feminine’, it is seen as a negative or a weakness. It’s weird though, because there is a difference as to what that negative connotation is depending on the guys sexuality. If he’s straight – he’s a pansy, he’s soft, he isn’t man enough, he is a ‘fag’. Yet, if you’re gay – you’re absolutely awful for being the cliché. You’re stopping people from being more accepting to homosexuality. You’re unattractive for being a ‘queen’. Either way, it’s very belittling. It’s frustrating because a man’s femininity is shameful, yet a woman being more assertive, in command, more ‘masculine’ is celebrated. BUT then there is this whole other side, where people want men to be more ‘feminine’. They want men to look after their appearance, their health. To be fashion conscious. They want men to be in touch with their emotions. If a straight man does any of this, he gets called out for being pussy whipped or called a little bitch. It’s all very back and forth, and conflicted.
I am a gay guy, and I would fit into the ‘feminine’ category (I honestly feel shame writing that, even though I don’t really think it’s a bad thing, a lot of others do though). My friend who’s really into the discussion of gender described me in a funny way. She said I was more feminine, but masculine in a feminine way. I found that really strange, to do this day I’m sort of puzzled by it.
My past experiences have always left me a little confused about the topic of ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’ within groups of guys themselves. During my school years, I was always friends with guys. I also got teased at school for being gay. I wasn’t out or anything, but people just picked up on it and would say shit to me. Yet, I was still friends with guys. I still had very strong friendships with girls, but in the flow of things, my closer friends were the guys. This was until my last year of high school, I guess when I really began to aware of what my sexuality was and the social issues about it. I also began to go on this gay ‘dating’ sites and a lot of guys had on their profile ‘I’m straight acting and not into feminine guys’. I had always just been myself; I was pretty nonchalant about it all. But as things like that started getting to me, it was I who became awkward around guys. The only relationships I’ve had with guys since high school finished have been sexual. I am now quite intimidated by straight or ‘masculine’ acting guys because I have this thought in my head now that they’d instantly think less of me because of the way I am. Which is bizarre because for the most part, I’ve always been happily accepted, more so by hetero guys then gay guys themselves. I just think it’s rather strange how sometimes what is perceived or assumed, is the complete opposite of the reality. I think this goes hand in hand with men discussing their sexuality. It’s assumed to be perverted or purely about the act of fucking. It is perceived that there is no thought process in a man’s sexuality.
I’m with Eliza, more of you guys should answer the interview questions. More insight is good!!
Sid, I think you bring up such a good point. In the gay world, you are right, among gay men there is a certain cachet to looking straight and being able to pass as straight, but the fact that this does not exist in anywhere near the same amount in the lesbian world, tells me that this is about a culture that disproves of feminine men and also demeans femininity.
Dr. Charlie Glickman talks about “the box” when it comes to masculinity: http://www.charlieglickman.com/2011/05/the-performance-of-masculinty/ and that when men don’t fit into that box they are exiled. The thing is, while women do have strict gender roles I think that women have been able to move away from our own “act like a female” box successfully, while men are still stuck being forced to adhere to gender roles. There is way more of an opening up, but because being a woman is not as respected as being man there is a certain looking down upon men who embrace their femininity.
Question, Yess thank you for answering the interview Q’s! Other guys, take note. More insight is good. Also, I find it sad that you say the reason we don’t see guys in sex writing is fear
There is something about it that feels particularly shaming. We talk about slut shaming but is there even a word for shaming men about their sexuality? For just being sexual beings? If not, let’s name this one.
Eliza, I think you nailed it on gray areas of consent. And I think in the question of alcohol + sex there is a lot to unpack… I know at least for me personally there is. And I am curious about others experiences. I think this may be worth writing about, but I’m not sure in what way…Curious if you have any further thoughts on it.
As a sexually submissive man, I have to deal with issues of gender simply because socialization pressures equate submissiveness with femininity. It was a struggle for me to even understand who I am as a sexual being and what I need from a lover. Even at this point, I struggle to show anyone a positive role model for a submissive man seeking to understand himself. So if I were to say what is missing from the discussion, it would be the voice of male submission.
How do you feel about your masculinity? Is this important to you?
I don’t believe in masculinity. I am a male, and I love being a male. But “masculinity” is the mask that society forces men to wear in public. Further, it is so all-encompassing that it constrains their personal relationships as well. Masculinity is a myth. There is no “male way” to do things.
As a heterosexual monogamous submissive male, the mask of masculinity hindered my understanding of who I am and what I need to be fulfilled in a loving relationship. I was socialized to believe that men were tough, men were in charge, men did this and that and the other…and it’s complete bullshit. Toxic bullshit. Men love. Men cry. Men ache. Men are fully emotive human beings. And any worldview that falls short of that is the emotional equivalent of castration.
Masculinity is a mask that men are forced to wear because society is far too threatened by the depth of male emotion. I love being a man, I hate masculinity.
Why is the sex writing, sex positive sphere dominated by women?
It’s part of the mask of masculinity. There is this feeling that men are simply naturally prepared to be sexual masters of the universe.
Okay…you know how difficult it is for many men to ask for directions on a trip? NOW, picture how much more difficult it would be to ask for directions to your lover’s clitoris. Or her G-spot. Or picture, after thirty years of masturbating and some shorter time of being sexually active with partners, a man suddenly has to ask directions about how to use his own penis, because it won’t get hard or stay hard or he can’t have an orgasm…
There is this idea that male sexuality is different, simpler than female sexuality. It’s just a button to push.Thoughts?
It’s bullshit. Stereotypical male sexuality is easy to explain because it’s a stereotype. But to wrap one’s arms around the totality of male sexuality means to run headlong into things that might keep one up at night. Like maybe Daddy liked to wear Mommy’s panties. Or Grampa could only get hard after he made Grandma cry (or vice versa). Maybe it’s someone’s brother who seeks verbal humiliation or medical play. Maybe it’s someone’s son who wants to be objectified and dehumanized.
Simple? Try to explain in less than a hundred words exactly what happens inside a man’s body to make an erection occur.
The surface of a lake is always simple. But the life teaming below the surface requires decades of study to understand adequately.
What about male stereotypes like guys being “less in touch with their emotions”?
I have twin sons. One likes to play with dolls and one with footballs. I’ve heard over and over that one is “all boy.” What does that make the other? Exactly what percentage of boy is he? Oh my God, he showed COMPASSION!
The boys are now four and today when one fell at the park and cried, another kid told him not to be a baby. “Be a man!” Fuck that. It hurt. Cry your eyes out.
Another time, the twin with a lisp was taunted by a gang of older boys. They literally chased after him calling, “Baby girl! Baby girl!” What’s worse? The parents stood there and did nothing. NOTHING!
Men are socialized from the moment of birth to separate their emotions from their lives. Except anger. It’s okay for men to get angry.
Society is afraid of men’s emotions. Otherwise, it would not work so hard to hide them.
What about the one, guys are just “thinking with their dicks”?
I really hate that expression. It’s nothing more than a socially accepted way to excuse men from their behavior. A guy meets a fat girl who makes him feel really special…and when his friends make fun of her for being fat, he says it was his dick that “made him do it.” It’s just another way to separate a man from his emotions. He can’t say, “God, she actually listened to how I feel!” Nope. “It was my dick.”
Same thing if he beds a pretty girl with emotional problems. Why does he go back to her? Obviously, because his dick likes a pretty girl. Not because he actually cares for her as a person and can see the value of the human being beyond the emotional issues. Nope. It’s his dick.
It’s dehumanizing. A man is not a dick. If my dick were cut off tomorrow, I’d still be a man. And you know what? I also know that I could still please my partner. And I know She could still please me. Because my sexuality is about more than my dick, just like me being a man is about more than my dick.
I’ve actually had this theory for some time about male sexuality, and it goes something like this:
So, when my peers and I were growing up, we were inundated with media and literature and songs and films that told us guys like sex, and want sex all the time, and think with their dicks. And us girls, we learnt that fast, and by the time we were 14/15, we seemed pretty mature sexually. But it’s not true! When the boys started to mature, we realised that everything we’d been told was, in some way, untrue, and we had to start learning again. So in fact, our own sexual maturity was set back because of the broad generalisations society makes about male sexuality.
Or perhaps this is a picture of how we relate to male sexuality on a larger scale…
It’s very frustrating. The vast majority of my best friends are male, and I think most of them have to work pretty hard to make it clear that their relationships with me and other female friends are about a lot more than just their dicks – and in some cases don’t involve their dicks at all. It seems like such a shame that THAT is actually something they have to concern themselves with.
Epic comments, Tomio.
I am curious how you feel male submission plays out in the whole of male sexuality. For instance in flirting, is there a need to fake dominant behavior (sort of PUA style) to get women to talk to you? I imagine that because male submission is not accepted it makes the whole of dating and relationships harder.
YET–I think there is more of an opening up of male submission and what it means to be a guy. I think of the role of the “new male” in pop culture, the twee, sweater wearing, intellectual guy that dominated the last decade in indie rock and “precious” film making ala Wes Anderson. While I’m not sure how much of that has to do with ACTUAL male submission and allowing it in pop culture, the other night a friend and I were at a bar in Williamsburg discussing dating in our age group. She pointed out how girls go after these emaciated, skinny jeansed artist types then expect them to be alpha and dominant–which is just not often the case. It’s a bit off topic, but just curious if anyone has thoughts on this or other areas where we see male submission in popular culture?
LGS, Oh wow this one is lighting up my brain. I too learned, as a tween, that boys were these horny drool balls only concerned with one thing. I think this probably made me more scared of boys, it made them seem like a different species, constantly smelly and masturbating with brains in their dicks. But when I did reach sexual maturity at 14/15, I found that the boys my age were pretty much like me. They wanted relationships, they seemed to value sexual exploration as personal exploration.
This, paired with the fact that they had only as much experiences as us girls, made them “dorks” in the eyes of my friends and I. Now we only wanted to date OLDER guys. Guys in college or at least seniors in highschool. In dating older guys the air of threat remained. These were guys who were sexually mature and more experienced, guys who did know what they wanted. If male sexuality hadn’t been built up as something dangerous, I wonder if I would have been more content dating men my own age….Just a thought.
***On another note, I still hear this question batted around sometimes– “CAN MEN AND WOMEN EVER REALLY BE FRIENDS?” Which kinda a gets my blood boiling. Why does being sexually attracted to someone negate being their friend? It really feeds into this idea that men have ulterior motives–all the time– and that those motives are bad or wrong.
And as a bisexual person this feels especially ludicrous. I’ve at many points felt sexually or romantically attracted to almost all of my friends, men and women. We seem to have this idea that that must lead to sex and sex will ruin friendships (also not true.) Or that it will lead to falling in love–also very not true, attraction and romance can be so fluid, it’s not linear. But, this question “can men and women just be friends” really just seems to further paint men as these useless drooling dumb hornballs.
God, I hate that – “Men and women can’t be friends”. I agree with EVERYTHING you say above. And furthermore! although I love my female friends, my GOD do they make things difficult. I have lost count of the issues/problems/dramas having same sex friends affords us girls. But my friendships with men are almost entirely stress free, and utterly enjoyable.
And yes yes yes! Part of the “men and women can’t be friends” argument always seems to be that it’s because one of you will, eventually, want more. I don’t understand why you can’t have a working friendship with someone you want, or have wanted, or have fucked, or are fucking! Why does no one talk about the FRIENDS part of the term “friends with benefits”? 75% of the people I’ve been with are my best friends! And they were my friends before I was with them, they were my friends when we were together, and they’re still my friends now. And other friends, whom I wanted in the past and didn’t get, are still my friends. Sex and friendship do not have to be mutually exclusive. Nor does the sex part have to be the prominent part. In fact, when I’ve been with friends in the past, we’ve always made damn sure the friendship was considered first and foremost.
Arrgh. Yeah, it makes my blood boil too. Human beings are so much stronger than this over nay-saying.
It’s such a black and white approach, like either you are all the way “just friends” or all the way in a serious committed romantic and sexual relationship. But what about the fact that you can have a romantic relationship without having a sexual relationship? And vice versa. I think this stems from our monogamous-normative culture (not sure if that is a word, but okay.) I think the problem is we don’t have enough relationship models. We have friend, relationship, and “friend with benefits” which too often just means relationship without talking about things. We need more relationship types!
Absolutely. I may have to write about this… I think I might be the woman for the job, given my large number of male friends, and the variety in the relationships I have with my friends – male and female. It’s definitely a discussion that needs to be pushed forward – this opening up of the definitions of relationships.
Here, here Lady! Report back with your overview! Also, I wonder what would change about sex if we considered that you *can* have sex with your friends, that sex doesn’t have to lead to a primary relationship and that this is okay… Are we just too far off from this happening?
Thank you.
I think male submission is much more common than anyone even starts to believe. A lot of the stereotypical male behavior comes from men having to reject their natural submissive tendencies and fill them with behaviors that are readily available in common media.
I am currently in a very committed relationship, so flirting with people I don’t know is not something I’m practicing. But I don’t think it is necessary to be anything other than submissive when flirting. Starting a conversation, for example, is not the antithesis of submission. Nor is an honest compliment or observation. So I have never had trouble flirting.
Where I have had trouble is that my submissive nature needs a woman’s permission to advance beyond that. So if she wants me to kiss her, she has to take the lead. It just doesn’t work for me otherwise.
Since I have openly embraced my submission, I’ve had no trouble with relationships because I’m up-front about it. However, I have two failed marriages that are a result of, in part, the inability of my submissiveness to accept the expected lead in those relationships. At this point, I have a wonderfully Dominant Woman in my life and things are grand.
I had to Google Wes Anderson, and I haven’t seen any of his work, so I can’t comment. Likewise with indie pop. I am, however, intellectual in that I teach college, though I have also worked as a electro-mechanic and appliance repairman. I’ve worked in agriculture and spent six years in the military. So…there is little about me that says “submissive” from a glance.
I haven’t actually noticed any actual submissive men in pop culture, unless one counts the stereotypical “yes,dear” hen-pecked husband – which is as much a stereotype as anything else out there. There are often shy men depicted culturally, but shyness is not submissiveness – shyness often disappears with growing intimacy.
It is also necessary to separate submissiveness from “being comfortable with showing emotion.” I was socialized as much as any other Western male and I still struggle with my emotions. Sometimes I cannot experience my emotions in the present tense, but must parse them in the calm times afterwards. I have found that, when in the presence of my Mistress’ Dominance, I will often push through and express things that I want to keep hidden – but that is often an act of bravery fueled by my submission to Her. It isn’t really the same thing.
I’d also say this – most of my friends are women. This is not a direct result of being submissive and having Dominant friends, though. It is more a result of my conscious decisions to not embrace the stereotypical masculine mask society has painted for me. I’d rather be despised for who I am than loved for who I am not…and that sort of thing often makes my fellow men uncomfortable.
In terms of masculinity, I think we’re all a bit confused. Some men may be stuck in an attempt to live up to an ideal of masculinity, but I also believe many women are just as messed up when it comes to what they want in a man. This might be the heterosexual version to the previous comments about homosexual men trying to portray themselves as “straight-acting.”
I constantly hear women complain about men who can’t open up and express their feelings, but these same women really don’t have any sexual desire for a man who opens up. My sister was visiting a couple weeks ago, and she put on this show called Love in the Wild. A man and a woman were tied together crossing this narrow bridge. Some of the wooden planks were broken out, so they had to walk on the rope at times. The man admitted to being afraid of heights, and the woman he was with was completely turned off because he wasn’t being the manly man she desired. By admitting to being afraid of heights, this guy castrated himself.
I don’t know if this was discussed on this site, but there was that “Dear Woman” video that made its way to every inch of the world wide web. A lot of women really appreciated the sentiment behind the message. They appreciated that men understood how women have had difficulties in the past and still do today. However, because the guys came across as sensitive, women thought they were creepy. They appreciated the sentiment, but the delivery was too feminine. I guess maybe the men should have been wrestling bears while stating their ideology.
And I know in my personal life how not living up to masculine ideals is damaging. I’ve known many decent guys who’ve approached women in a decent way (ie. not in a bar at 2 AM) because they’re relationship-oriented guys. And they know these women to be wanting a relationship. However, by not trying to get in her pants right away, the women were a bit turned off. It’s like the women didn’t want to be approached like they’re promiscuous, but they wanted a man to be sexual right from the get-go.
There’s a constant societal pressure to tone down the masculinity, but I think there’s also a constant personal pressure to become hyper-masculine. The societal pressure comes from an understanding that we all need some compassion towards each other in order to live together in society. The personal pressure comes from an understanding that I’m horny, and I want to get laid. It seems, in our current situation, we men must choose to either be a nice, pleasant human being who is accepted by society but has no sexual value, or we can be an asshole misfit outcast who drives a motorcycle and also has bitches lined up around the corner to jump in bed with us.
I don’t think there’s a solution to this. Women want what they want, and men want what they want. We don’t have a choice as to who/what we’re attracted to. However, expressions of masculinity are usually superficial and often faked and hold no meaning. Personally, I consider myself to be quite masculine. Anyone who takes a look at me would think I’m masculine. However, people who know me are a bit confused about my masculinity. I can spend a Saturday going to an antiquarian bookstore and finding rare copies of philosophy texts, or I can spend it building a shelf from my own design for those books. I can discuss gender inequalities, and you’ll usually find me drinking a few beers while watching the Packers game during the NFL season. I did a lot of acting in plays, but I’ll take your ass to the ground if I feel you’re asking for it.
What I think is dangerous is when we see a person exhibiting a very specific behavior, so we view that person as not being masculine. For instance, that guy on Love in the Wild admitted to a fear, but that shouldn’t mean he’s not masculine. Similarly, deeming a certain behavior either masculine or not masculine is very problematic and confusing in a world that’s supposed to be enlightened.
Last week I interviewed Charlie Glickman about the flipside of what we are talking about–femme guilt. This is something I have experienced, guilt over being too traditionally feminine, too sexy, too femme in a straight way rather than queer way. This is something I’ve found is looked down upon largely in intellectual circles, especially among other women.
It’s like when you present as traditionally feminine or masculine people assume certain things about you. But if you are a man, it seems that’s good it’s okay… if you are a woman, it’s less okay, we kind of assume you are vapid or somehow lesser–weaker and giving into the beauty myth or filled with low self esteem. I think this is because of two things 1. Sexism still exists and so we don’t give much respect to femininity. and 2. Because we are feeling the reverberations of second wave feminism which asked women to buck the female gender role, with the idea that heels or padded bras were tools of the patriarchy. But to me these things are enjoyable tools of my sexuality.
Sidenote–I also wonder if this is what gay men and submissive men are fighting against as well–that they are equated with being feminine and being feminine is not respected. Is there “femme guilt” among men?
While people may assume things about you, BK, for enjoying beer and football, or me for loading up on a rainbow of eyeshadows at MAC, it’s important to note that the answer isn’t shunning gender roles entirely, but picking and choosing what works for you. Because gender roles are also sex roles, and that’s okay.
And BK, your message hits home. My husband and I were talking about this recently, and he says he sometimes feels like he needs to be more of a dominant masculine asshole type with me then he wants, because he gets more attention from me that way, but it doesn’t always feel authentic or good. It’s hard for me to admit about myself but I think it’s true. I also think we should question what we like and why we like it. Some people say that we are all born naturally dominant or submissive, but my gut tells me that we are honestly all pretty “switchy”. And if we can break out of our gender roles can find a lot more things we like sexually than the de rigeuer man as dominant woman as submissive.
@ Tomio Black
so much this
“Where I have had trouble is that my submissive nature needs a woman’s permission to advance beyond that. So if she wants me to kiss her, she has to take the lead. It just doesn’t work for me otherwise.”
and this
“I haven’t actually noticed any actual submissive men in pop culture, unless one counts the stereotypical “yes,dear” hen-pecked husband – which is as much a stereotype as anything else out there. There are often shy men depicted culturally, but shyness is not submissiveness – shyness often disappears with growing intimacy.”
What this tells me is that women have NO idea how to treat/interact with/possibly have sex with submissive men. I am curious if you do have any tips or things you’ve learned that women have done right and wrong in flirting with/dating you.
The biggest thing I’ve learned about male submission in the last year is that very often submissive men are much like submissive women–they want to be paid attention to, to be made the center of someone’s attention. And I see this in myself as a bisexual person, when I get toppy with a woman I worship her body and throw her around and just make her feel eaten up. I’ve learned to try to do this with my male partner too, when he is feeling submissive. From my conversations, I think this is often missing in sex for submissive men, and I think they probably crave it.
The thing is women are programmed NOT to do this and I think it largely has a lot to do with that whole idea that the male body is seen as “gross”.
It’s a big topic – and the problem is that what works is going to be highly individualized.
I think at this point in my life, if I were actively dating, I would make sure that my date understood my submissiveness is not an indication of lack of interest. My date’s satisfaction would be of primary interest to me, so she would need to initiate any movement to a higher level of intimacy. So if she wanted a kiss, she would need to turn me towards her, step close to me and either whisper her desire (highly erotic!) or hold my face in her hands and kiss me. If she wanted me to come inside when I dropped her off, she’d need to actually invite me in. If she wanted me in her bed, she’d either need to lead me to her bed or simply tell me that she wanted me to take her to bed.
As I read that, it looks a bit…mechanical. But it doesn’t need to be. For instance, she could say something like, “I want to believe you would worship my body like a goddess…prove me right.” She paints the broad picture and tells me to put in the details.
I would put it this way: I NEED someone to let me make them the center of my universe…and I NEED to know that it means as much to them as it does to me. If I can do that; then I become much more comfortable being an object of their lust and/or affection. If I can’t; then I find it impossible to relax and let things happen naturally because I am too busy trying to find what will make them enjoy being the center of my universe.
What I crave is total control of the situation being in my partner’s hands. There are certain things that reinforce this – for example, when She places Her hands around my throat. What I crave is knowing that my partner’s will is being exercised. (I think it is the same thing you are saying, but in a different way.)
I’m sure this is true. Men are also given the idea that their bodies are unlovely, as well. Only hyper-ripped male bodies are pretty. Find a male model with BMI in the 20s. I dare ya.
How do you feel about your masculinity? Is this important to you?
Here’s how I see traditional American masculine roles: society asks a man to be an island. We are expected to contain our emotions. We are expected to make a name for ourselves, spreading our seed far-and-wide. We are told to be proud in being the more assertive sex. We’re expected to initiate, to nurture and produce romantic relationships. We’re expected to be sure of what we’re doing and who we are. We’re expected to do things efficiently rather than aestetically.
Don’t get me wrong, there are several perks I can think of regarding masculinity, but overall I’d say that masculinity has hurt my experience as a person. I’m a bisexual artist and I question myself everyday regarding masculinity. I worry about not coming off as “man enough” when I try to express my feelings in pieces. I feel like my masculinity is mostly a mask that I wear in order to please society. I’m much more effeminate than masculine, in my own opinion, but I feel like most women want men who play to the “tough guise,” if only a bit. I feel expected to play a stereotype and it’s wrong. I feel like a prisoner in my own persona, leaking bits and pieces of who I really am to those around me.
How do I feel about my masculinity? Bad.
Why is the sex writing, sex positive sphere dominated by women?
It’s dominated by women because nearly all depictions of male sexual assertion in mainstream media before recently depict men as animals. I think that a lot of it has to do with how aggression and violence through competition aren’t directly discouraged in masculinity, or in least how masculinity is taught. In mainstream media guys are brought up in a sea of pro-war propaganda. Most everything I can remember playing with as a young boy had some tie to violence, be it my G.I. Joes or my cool old lazer gun that made silly noises. I think that young boys are taught to be very possessive and agressive and aggression and possession in regards to sex tend to be unhealthy for at least one partener. Don’t get me wrong, I think that agression in regards to sexual activity can be invigorating. However, I think it’s the tendancy for feelings of agression and violence to be tied to abuse of power, molestation and rape that makes male writers seem unsavory in the eyes of society.
I also feel that guys have a hard time accepting sex as a wholistically “positive” experience. I feel that no matter how hard one tries to deny the body, sex stimulates feelings. A “real man” doesn’t heed his feelings, so as guys we’re expected to deny what we feel for our partener. I know this fact makes ME want to talk about sex less, for fear of being seen as unnatractive for being too effeminate.
There is this idea that male sexuality is different, simpler than female sexuality. It’s just a button to push.Thoughts?
BULLSHIT. I just don’t agree whatsoever with the idea that any pair of tits can “push my button.” I have a huge mental list of things that turn me on and off. I cannot imagine having one-sided sex, enjoying sex with a person who didn’t enjoy sex with me, and without enjoyment I can’t push my button. I was confronted with this BULLSHIT earlier this year. I find myself to exhibit some of the signs of being a male submissive, as Tomio describes it. I feel a compulsion to please another. I recently stopped talking to a woman that I’d had a very deep romance with, someone special to me. I found that whenever I would feel aroused after splitting with her, things just wouldn’t work out physically. My body wanted to have sex, but my emotional spectrum just wasn’t with it whatsoever. At first I felt ashamed, as I feel there is a lot of pressure for a man to perform sexually. Thinking about it with more hindsight, I’m kinda proud. I think that the tendancy in society to say that female sexuality is more complex stems from the fact that men are expected to bottle their feelings, something I feel is a big part of sexuality. We don’t exhibit the complexity, but it’s there.
What about male stereotypes like guys being “less in touch with their emotions”?
More BS, at least in my experience. I don’t know about you all, but when I was a kid masturbation was looked down upon. That didn’t stop me from masturbating. Same thing goes for emotions. I might have been told to deny the way that I feel, but doing so is another story. I feel it’s more that guys are expected to act a certain way from a young age and we become very good at the act, so good sometimes that we can’t distinguish between it and the reality. I feel IMMENSELY every day. Hell, I wish my feelings weren’t so damn prevalent sometimes
What about the one, guys are just “thinking with their dicks”?
The same can be said for “thinking with one’s mouth.” All things can be reduced into one simple reason. It there ever really one simple reason, though? I mean, when a guy thinks about sex with another person, the other person automatically pops in there, right? Yes I’d love to be closer to someone, but not at the expense of both of us. Sure some people are selfish, but I don’t think that sexual selfishness is absolutely dominated by men. Yes I do feel that many more women are manipulated into sexual activity, but manipulation is a play between two, regardless. I hate to do this, as the victim side is usually the one with all of the sympathy, but flip the question on its head: are women just thinking with their tear ducts? The answer is no, we’re feeling many conflicting emotions. Sound familiar?
What is missing from the discussion around male sexuality?
Openess. Acceptance. I don’t know how to bring such into the discussion though, as they’re things that are most definitely not completely masculine. Especially not openess. I think the thing missing most in this discussion is female support of effeminate males, regardless of sexual preference. I’m not saying that every woman should start looking for a less manly man. I AM saying that maybe they should start thinking about giving kinder, gentler males a chance rather than seeing effeminate affectations as weaknesses. I think it’s kinda sad that I feel I have to say something like that.
Please excuse my lowbrow comment Rachel. I write stuff as I see it and I unfortunately I harbour a lot of anger because of my shyness that I cant seem to shake. I have just turned 40 and I still struggle with women so I guess I have given up.
I am tired of females and their take on male sexuality. I know that sounds like a complete generalization but I have done the rounds asking many women over the years if they would like to sleep with me and because I am a shy guy who doesn’t really exert any superior masculinity I just don’t appeal to them obviously and thus I don’t get any sex.
If just one twentieth of all the fuss that is made of women when they are pregnant was directed towards men and their needs society would be a better place and you know what, we might even evolve a little as a species because of it.
I feel for the boys and young men growing up now who are either shy or are genuinely submissive….its a bloody hard road when you know you are different but cant do anything about it.
Clyde
I read through most of the comments and the post, but I want to answer spontaneously here, so forgive me if I’ve duplicated anything…
How do you feel about your masculinity? Is this important to you?
Masculinity is important to me, but having explored other cultures’ ideas of it has broadened its scope to make it a more comfortable space. Worrying about masculinity is more about fitting in amongst certain men and impressing certain women rather than achieving any other independent benefit.
Why is the sex writing, sex positive sphere dominated by women?
Instinctively I think it’s because men are trained to focus on a meta-level perspective on sex. To explore the details involves more honesty and self reflection, which may lead to men finding out something they don’t want to know about themselves. It’s also exciting for men to read women’s voices on sex because it’s a form of presenting; we expect women to be coy about sex and this violates the expectation. Most men are less afraid of sex, so if they see women acting confident about it, they feel like they live in a more sexually abundant world. It opens up the economy.
What about male stereotypes like guys being “less in touch with their emotions”?
This goes back to the meta-level fixation. Masculinity is all about trying to get things done, to accomplish, to dominate. Romantic emotions are unruly and are treated as if they were on a lower level of magnitude. The President appoints a Secretary of the Interior and let’s him do his thing so he can fight wars and the opposing party.
What is missing from the discussion around male sexuality?
A brilliant and irritable lesbian editor I worked with once said “Men need to learn how to say ‘no’ and women need to learn how to say ‘yes.’” Men have a terrible time hitting the brakes when offered sex unless the person is unattractive or meaningless to them. Occasionally sex with someone attractive and/or meaningful doesn’t feel right, but he doesn’t want to let her down or miss out or something. Unless you were an alpha male growing up, or kinda lucky, you probably didn’t get much sexual attention in your teen years, but you masturbated a lot. You probably told yourself that once sex comes along, you’re gonna take it all, like a poor person who dreams of unlimited wealth. And just like that erstwhile poor person, sexual wealth can come with its own problems.
Thanks for Michael’s comments- very interesting!
A lot Gen-X males were raised to be good people, especially towards the women in our lives. Maybe the fear of AIDS had something to do with it because back then it was a death sentence, but a lot of us were brought up to be sensitive pony tale types and to totally respect women. Sure we would sleep with our girlfriends and those memorable one-night stands, but it was generally pretty vanilla with a high interest on the woman’s needs. I hate to say this, but that fucked a lot of us up as we got older and had to navigate the changing and bewildering mine field of women, sex, relationships, marriage, kids and where as modern men we fit in.
The ironic part of it is, I know a lot of these “good guys” who ended up marrying women that totally dominated and destroyed their self worth. What’s worse is they usually fucked around on these guys and then used a combination of guilt and blackmail to keep them obedient and under control. It’s tragic because most these guys were really trying to do the right thing, respect women, and be good people. Now these guys just shut up and tolerate loads of bullshit and blame from their partners just to protect their children.
You can talk about sex positive, women’s rights and the rest, but I think it’s time we as a society start really examining gender roles, the control of women, and the oppression of men because it’s not just women who get abused.
What is it to be a male or female todays world and how do we raise the next generation to be less fucked in the head than us.
I saw a commercial on TV, and I had to add something to this conversation. This commercial was for fabric softener (possibly Downy?), and it featured two handsome, hard-bodied men wearing tight black shirts. Women were invited to come over and feel up these men in order to determine which shirt was softer. The women made comments about being excited to feel these men and wanting to feel their muscles and hugging them in a sexual way (you don’t need to rub pelvises when hugging, ladies), and I realized just how dirty this commercial would be considered if it were with men rubbing women’s bodies. The trick was the shirts were the exact same but one was washed using the fabric softener the ad was for. Why couldn’t the women just feel shirts that weren’t being worn by anyone? I swear our society gets more sex negative all the time. I’ll be watching for the men-feeling-women version of this commercial. Equal opportunity objectification…
@ Bounty, This:
“I also feel that guys have a hard time accepting sex as a wholistically “positive” experience. I feel that no matter how hard one tries to deny the body, sex stimulates feelings. A “real man” doesn’t heed his feelings, so as guys we’re expected to deny what we feel for our partener. I know this fact makes ME want to talk about sex less, for fear of being seen as unnatractive for being too effeminate.”
I found this comment to be extremely astute! I had never thought of it this way but this makes so much sense. I am now curious to really explore the ways that we socialize boys and girls differently about sex. Obviously female virginity is what’s given value in our culture, but what do guys expect their first time to be like? How are they taught to behave sexually? What are they taught to expect? My gut tells me it’s just as damaging as the messages girls get about virginity, yet this is not something I’ve seen explored.
@ JDub “” Men have a terrible time hitting the brakes when offered sex unless the person is unattractive or meaningless to them. Occasionally sex with someone attractive and/or meaningful doesn’t feel right, but he doesn’t want to let her down or miss out or something.”
I agree with you, but actually, personally, I experience this too. My sexual history is filled with not wanting to hurt people’s feelings/being bored/wanting attention so I said yes/wanting a higher number or more experience/just being turned on so thinking why not. I don’t think my sexual experience is representative of most women’s though, from my conversations…but I also don’t think it is terribly far off.
But my question is, is having sex from any of these states actually harmful? Or when we view them as harmful are we just overvaluing sex? I know this impacts women in that the message is to be careful who you let in and give away sex with reverence, so of course, we feel guilty after hook-ups like these. But how does it affect men?
@ BK, Haha! Oh man. Yeah, it’s funny that it’s considered progressive and okay when we simply flip the equation. Here’s the thing, I don’t think sexual objectification is wrong or bad (either towards men or women) but it’s just a matter of how it’s done. And I’m not sure I have an answer yet for how to do it properly…
A bit pressed for time, but I want to answer this:
I want to ask, “How do you feel about your masculinity?” to a woman, and see how she answers. Or, “How do you feel about your femininity?” to a man.
For a really long time I hated my ‘masculinity’. Anything that even slightly resembled big hulking guys drinking beer and watching football… anything hinting at quintessential masculinity, I hated about myself, and I tried to strip out of myself. Not because it didn’t belong there (the parts that were there definitely belonged there), but because it represented to me a box that the world was simultaneously trying to force me into and deriding when manifested.
Many notions of masculinity do fit me, and many more do not, but people still view them as a unified “thing” together. I do have masculine traits, but the fact that they are considered “masculine” is completely irrelevant to me. Masculinity is no more defining or representative of who I am than femininity, or childlike-ness, or intellect, etc. I am just me.
I don’t even know what the phrase “my masculinity” is supposed to mean. Does that mean the collection of traits I possess that are typically considered masculine, or is it instead some ineffable thing that I am supposed/required to have simply because I am male? The latter notion makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think I will ever be fully comfortable with ‘my masculinity’ until it is acceptable for me to not have it all.
@mike
Yeah, that’s called abuse. Abusive women exist, just like abusive men. Unfortunately, we don’t do a good job of warning guys about abusive women (not that we do a great job of warning women about abusive men in useful ways, but still) or even acknowledging that they exist. If anything, we usually write off abusive women as “crazy bitches” instead of calling them what they are: dangerous and abusive; abusers. The flip side of not taking women seriously…
In any case, I think this has less to do with teaching men to respect women, and more to do with teaching men to “respect” women (with quotes). Which I agree is a problem recent generations struggle with. Pedestalizing women is not the same as respecting women. Respect includes holding people accountable for their shit… of which humans have plenty, regardless of gender.
Obviously female virginity is what’s given value in our culture, but what do guys expect their first time to be like? How are they taught to behave sexually? What are they taught to expect?
As a kid in America, I felt like virginity was something to be gotten rid of ASAP. I thought it would be with someone that I was attracted to, but that was about as much as I ever thought about it. Being sexually active is an achievement for guys, like a prize for proving themselves worthwhile.
I guess I expected my first time to make me feel better, but when the time came I gave myself to someone I wasn’t really into because I felt really unnatractive and being a virgin felt like support for such an feeling. Afterwards I felt used because the person was a compulsive liar and manipulative, telling terrible lies about herself to get me to feel bad for her.
I can’t say that I love how I was taught about sex by society. I feel unable to connect with other people physically. I dunno, maybe it’s just something wrong upstairs. I feel like I’m on a different wavelength than people who are sexually active.
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