Thanks so much for writing about this. I think that this truly opens up the conversation of sexuality that is important. From a guy’s perspective, I do feel that for a long time it was hard to see the sensual, erotic, or attractive quality of the male figure; that partially has to do with my religious upbringing and how they tried to breed me to be a homophobe and in the long run that didn’t, but another story for another time. But I think even for more moderate to progressive guys who are supportive of LGBT people and rights are still uncomfortable with the male body, it’s erotic quality and the personal desires they try not to think about.

This seems to be the last vestige of men fully embracing all things in relation to sexuality and all of its nuances. Also the thing that strikes me is this is opposite side of the same coin of sexism that women deal with in mainstream culture, only for men and specific to them. By no means is it equal or that I am conflating how culturally modern society tends to undercut and turn women into second class citizens, but I think even if it is less severe it is just as damaging.

As I have found with age and experience I am predominantly straight, but have an attraction, whether true bi-sexuality I am unsure, or at least an erotic imagination for all sorts of sexuality, gay, straight, bi, and everything else in between. Maybe with more age and experience it will become more defined, but I think it is an exciting place to explore who you really are sexually and I hope men get past this and can do the same. Sorry for the huge sermon, love this post and what you do.

HAHAHAHA. As someone who is still religious person, in that we’re the socialisty kind of religious (my priest is female, and we are pro-choice, LGBT supportive, pro-peace and open to other religions) and has a sense of humor; that is hilarious/true. There is homoeroticism all over the Bible and they do make Jesus very erotic on that cross, no question.

Honestly? Guys are hot.

Or, to be more precise, the idea of the male body is hot. In the real world, there are some hot guys, some that leave me indifferent and some I find downright ugly (although it’s probably not politically correct to say so). It’s the same with women’s bodies… for some I’d willingly change teams. Anytime. (If only I knew what to do with them?!! *lol*)

Really, men are great. Skin and fur and sweat and smell… *yum*.

Oh! And wangs are weird-looking, but I think vulvas are, too. To me, they both kind of resemble what’s left over after a shark attack. But that doesn’t mean they’re not great or worthy of sexiness!

You bring up some really interesting points that I didn’t think of when you first posed the question. I am especially struck by “Are women unconsciously aligning their beliefs with those of the great white bro-dudes?” – that internalized male homophobia would be so rampant that women are afraid to be attracted to men, too! Remarkable! I’m also really interested in the first comment, that men’s arousal is rarely secret/questionable.

When I began my relationship with my husband, I had previously had relationships with girls. I wanted so much to call him “beautiful”, but I didn’t know if that was acceptable to say to a man. Finally once I asked him if I could say it; he liked it.

This is a slightly different situation, but for a few months we were living with my BFF and her wife, a lesbian couple, and they ALWAYS went out of their way to squeal about how “gross” any guys portrayed sexually on TV were. After awhile, it started to offend my husband – would it be acceptable, in a household with 3 men and one woman, if the men called every woman on TV a dog? (well, I’m sure it happens…)

There is also the issue of bodybuilding. I can’t remember the name of this documentary I saw, but the subject of the documentary, a man, said “Do you think women are attracted to this body? They don’t think it’s sexy, they think it’s disgusting.” That’s what I was reminded of when you mentioned that you felt neutral towards dude’s six-pack-abs. Bodybuilding seems to be something men do to feel good about themselves, not to specifically attract women, similarly to beauty rituals women may participate in that men don’t even notice. Like the guy showing off his abs is like when I tell my husband, “Feel how soft my legs are, I shaved!” Last time we had sex I mentioned later that I “didn’t even shave.” He said he didn’t notice!! I was like, well then, fuck that, I’m not going to try so hard to shave on the days I feel like I might get laid…

Love this topic, it’s so fascinating. Closing note: Tom of Finland = HOTT.

Thanks so much for this post, Rachel. I am a bit short on time right now, but I’ll get back to it soon.

For the moment, a quick anecdote from my art-school years that relates to this:

There idea seems to be: if a guy is vocal about sex, it’s icky. Predator-like. If this is what we (unconsciously) think, how can we celebrate and enjoy bodies that carry a connotation of danger?

As an art student, we regularly did (nude) figure drawing. And I recall a time when one of the male models got an erection during the session. He was visibly uncomfortable with the situation. After the class ended, the female students in particular were going on about how gross and creepy that was, that he got an erection while they were drawing him, though some male students agreed as well. Not entirely sure what to make of that, but it seems relevant.

I remember at the time, I did not say anything, but I felt really bad for the guy, and it was really clear to me that the women didn’t understand how involuntary erections can be. But looking back, it seems there is more to it than just that. Like, as long as a male body is not sexual, then it is somehow okay. But when you inject sexuality into, suddenly it is gross and creepy.

You raise some interesting points about the male/female gaze we have as denizens of the 21th Century –

As a bisexual, I find all bodies either gross or hot depending on my mood, and how intellectually attracted I am to the person I am “desiring”. Pleasing men (I haven’t pleased many people mind you) was never difficult for me because I just imagined they’d like what I like – our gender differences don’t change THAT much of our biological make-up. Nerve endings are still in the same place

Yeah, sometimes the extra hair gets to me, but it’s the human body – women can be gross too. Growing up, I always thought if I ended up with a male mate, he would have a hairless chest – a desire I learned from watching porn and enjoying ads of men without their shirts on. It turns out I love my male mate so much I don’t really care about his hairy chest.

I actually find it is easier for me to be lusty with my man, and more effectively communicate my lust, if I am feeling “predatory” or “confident”, usually after a good day. I’ve never felt bad ogling men in porn… that’s what they’re there for!

@Eliza:

I think part of this problem is that women are objectified much more than men. Thinking about my own past, during sexual experiences men would always compliment me on appearance: you have such a great body, or I love your breasts. I would always compliment men on their behavior: I love it when you do this, or that feels really good. I have finally come to realize that this is just another way of being objectified; I am desirable as an object, not a participant. Men love the female body, but not any of her actions. We are much more uncomfortable with objectifying men, so we say their body is gross, but their actions are sexy.

This is very interesting to me, because I agree about the objectification bit. But I actually see the lack of objectification of male partners as a problem–a negative–rather than a benefit. As a guy, I have always felt like my partners appreciated what I could do for them and how I could make them feel, but never actually appreciated me or my body.

On the other hand, I think–as you say–many women feel that their actions, and therefore themselves, are not being appreciated.

And this is interesting, then. When my body is not appreciated–only my actions–I don’t feel like I am being appreciated. And when women’s actions aren’t appreciated–only their bodies–they don’t feel like they are being appreciated.

I am strongly inclined to believe that both are true, and that neglecting appreciation of either a person’s body or their actions is failing to appreciate the whole person. Speaking with regard to sexual relationships, of course.

@Frusz E:

Yeah, sometimes the extra hair gets to me, but it’s the human body – women can be gross too. Growing up, I always thought if I ended up with a male mate, he would have a hairless chest – a desire I learned from watching porn and enjoying ads of men without their shirts on. It turns out I love my male mate so much I don’t really care about his hairy chest.

I have similar feelings. Though I am straight, I certainly am not fond of my own body hair (in fact, I would say that is one of my greatest bodily insecurities) and I tend to see it as unattractive on other guys. And I tend to assume my partners feel similarly as you, “I love my male mate so much I don’t really care about his hairy chest.” i.e. loved in spite of my body. Which really is not a good feeling.

@The thread in general:
I definitely get the “I’m attracted to what I’m attracted to” thing. But I think there is a danger in believing that is immutable. Perhaps I am just strange for a human being, but I am actually fairly adaptive in what I find attractive, and it can change–to a point–based on experiences with people. Things I do not initially find pleasing about a partner’s body, I will often find myself appreciating and loving later on in the relationship, and then find it attractive in others as well. And as I continue to get older (I am not that old–mid 20′s), I find my appreciation for different body types and facial structures and complexions expanding.

And I wonder if part of that flexibility and malleability on my part is due simply to being open to it. Perhaps there is a self-fulfilling prophecy in saying, “I’m attracted to what I’m attracted to, and that’s that. Can’t do anything about it.”

On the other hand, perhaps the malleability itself varies from person to person. It is like picky eaters vs super-non-picky/adventurous eaters, perhaps.

oh, and one more thing about gendered language in sex: notice the difference in terms used for oral sex, “blow job” and “giving head”. Women’s sexual action with that “icky penis” is a ‘job’, or we’re blowing, not a very pretty term, while men’s sexual action is ‘giving’, a much kinder term, presumably more fitting for women’s prettier gentials. What a disservice to both men and women.

I definitely think some men’s bodies are works of art. I prefer natural long lean muscles, not real bulky. I don’t like it when a guy looks like he spends hours at the gym every day–dumb jock look. I like smooth vs. hairy (although a happy trail is sexy). I have a thing for arms and hands with long slender fingers. I don’t really have a thing for six packs, but that crease that goes from the hip bone down to the pubic bone (I think it’s called the inguinal ligament) drives me crazy. I’ve never been into butts.

As for penis I don’t like them super long or super thick. A nice happy medium is fine with me with a good firm erection. Don’t get me wrong. I’m just talking about aesthetics here. I’m not turning any down if they’re attached to a nice guy.

So yeah. I definitely appreciate the male body.

Xakudo- you are absolutely right, I did not mean to imply that only actions should be appreciated. I agree with Rachel that sexuality is multi-dimensional, and we should respect that about our partners.

Rachel- ha, that cracks me up that you wanted people to send you pictures! Objectification is a really strange part of everyone’s sexuality. I’m not sure where it comes from, or why we all seem to need to do it, but it definitely has it’s role. What I think the best solution for all of us is to start trying to look at one another as individuals. Instead of, what do I like about all men, or what are the sexy traits of women, we should instead look at our partner and think what do I like about YOU?

I’m also amused by how often all of us in this thread talk about liking or disliking hair and sweat, as if this defines the male body. I’m a woman, and I am hairy and sweaty, too! I like men’s bodies because I like the men, and while certain traits are more macho than others, Xakudo is right in keeping an open mind to all types of bodies and features and letting our gut attraction be our guide, instead of what we think we are attracted to.

About the metrosexualization of males, I think it largely parallels the flapper stereotype of the 1920′s. For instance, wearing waistless dresses, bobbed hair, smoking and drinking were all imitations of something masculine. Yet the shorter dresses and “loose lifestyle” were sexual. Women’s rights have come a looooong way since then, and, not to say that feminism has done it’s hard day’s job and there’s nothing more to fight for, but women have gone such a greater distance then men have in that respect. Women are allowed to fill feminine gender roles, but they are also allowed (to an extent) to fill masculine ones. Men, on the other hand, are still stuck in their traditional roles. How many househusbands do you know? Metrosexual is the fashion trend that goes along with the more serious social and political movement. It’s sign of things to come 100 years from now.

On the subject of male beauty, as children we are sheltered from most things sexual, and then to see/experience sexuality all of a sudden is foreign/strange/gross. The thing is, women’s beauty is broadcast all over everywhere and is celebrated constantly, there nothing new or strange about a half dressed woman. Men’s bodies are not treated as such.

I find penises in porn kind of scary and intimidating because they’re so BIG!! It doesn’t make sense at all- if most porn is directed towards men most of the time (with the exception of the awesome sites you’ve posted ), why must the penises be so scary and huge?? Also, penises just tend to look sooooo weird on-screen… maybe because, unlike parts a woman’s body which are frequently shown in movies, you’d only ever see an erect male penis on-screen in a porno.

When I was questioning my sexuality before I actually came out as being bisexual, I began to notice that I was always attracted to the boys that seemed to take better care of themselves than me- the ones with the soft skin that never had pimples, the ones whose elbows were never scaly. I think the reason that girls are, in general, the “beautiful” ones in society is because society puts so much pressure on us to be well groomed, while guys can get away with a more grungy look as well.

But what I really find beautiful in girls (femme girls, at least), is not their well-groomedness, but their honest vulnerability- the whole macho man thing that guys always put on isn’t there.

I never thought much of the male body until the last year or so. Now I love looking at naked men, not even well-built men, just normal men. I love their strong legs and long feet and hairy butts and shoulders, it’s all so beautiful!

Xakudo, I love what you say about wanting to be objectified to some degree. I see myself as someone who, throughout my life, has not received a lot of sexual/flirtatious attention. I don’t know why this is, and sometimes I’m grateful and sometimes I wonder wtf is wrong with me. I think you point out a really, REALLY valuable idea: “treating someone “professionally” or similar in a sexual context is also disrespectful.”

& I totally agree that what you are attracted to can change over time, and you can become attracted to something you didn’t think you would be when it’s on someone you love! When I was a kid I loved (pictures of) long-haired guys. My husband has a crew cut, because his hair gets bushy if he tries to grow it out. I still like to look at long-haired dudes, but I think its super-sexy when my husband gets a really “high and tight” haircut!

I really enjoy your thoughtful contributions to this discussion.

This post!!

I have been thinking about this A LOT recently, I think we spoke about it a little some time last year one one of your posts? But it’s something that bothers me a lot. Everything you’ve mentioned, really. The way that men are societally allowed to be topless, allowed to show their bums as a joke or as a grossout, and the way that the main-slash-traditional way of sexualising a man’s body is to play up the muscular, i-will-take-you aspects of it..

Ugh, so much mixed up and so unfair! So hard to de-program but so worthwhile!

I promise this isn’t just a wanton plug: the intimidation effect around positively objectifying men is why I started my webcomic That’s Not Sexy. It’s a comic about penis jokes; I draw penises in a realistic/illustrational-prettified way instead of in a bulging confrontational or shrivelly way. I want to give people (like.. nearly everyone?) who are unsure of where they stand re: hot dudes’ bodies a place to get themselves used to looking at cocks in a non-pornographic, non-confrontational way. I hope that just being used to seeing nice penises without having to be all, WOAH, A PENIS??!!!??!! – because the point (hurrhurr) of the comic is that there’s a *joke*, rather than just a penis which one must consider sexually/shockingly.

This article is definitely interesting.
Coming from a totally straight guy, I feel that people should simply see someone as hot, meh, ew, or whatever regardless of their sex, body type, face, etc.
Everyone has different tastes. Reading everyone’s comments here made it that way! But that’s just me being idealistic and into equality of the sexes and whatnot.

Rabbit said, “it does seem like women are more choosy then men. I think is again because we aren’t encouraged to own our desires –though some may say it’s a hormonal thing, I am not sure. The truth is that me and a guy who looks better than me could stand at a bar all night, and I have a better chance of getting laid. Probably. When I look around nightclubs and what not, it seems this is just the way it works. Women seem to be more choosy, but we can’t remove that phenomenon from the truth that women are taught to disown their desire.”

1. Women are more selective thanks to evolution because women have fewer eggs than men have sperm, therefore they have to be selective in terms of physical aspects somewhat.
2. Women have a better chance of getting laid at a bar if a man/woman were to stand idly simply because it’s up to a man to be assertive and make the first move most of the time.
3. It could be disowning desire, but couldn’t it also be “social conditioning” to wait around until the guy goes up to you? Like it’s wrong for a women to make the first move on a guy she is interested in?

In case this is tl;dr, I still feel like social conditioning plays a major role as well. But I’ll get to that more after a reply to the above points.

I think that a lot of girls have trouble expressing lust for the male form, because as like you’ve said, we’ve been taught not too. However, I personally have trouble expressing lust for the male form, because I find soft lips, a curvaceous waist, long hair and smooth skin a whole lot sexier. But that’s just me! This isn’t to say I idolise the air brushed advertisements and billboards I see everyday. I’m much more partial to the real girls we see on Flickr, the ones who represent everyday life in all its imperfect, mundane and trivial glory.

Rachel:

I’m with Drop Out Boogie, Xakudo you are on fire! If that brain of yours comes up with anything else on objectification please type away, I am finding this super helpful.

Aww… it’s no fun if everyone is agreeing with me!

(I am only half joking… I am intensely wary of group-think.)

Most males bodies are not beautiful because most males don’t take care of themselves by eating right and exercising. So I can see how a lot of women are turned off or confused by the sight of nude dudes. I’m sitting in a office right now and every single guy here has a terrible body. It’s also been my experience that gals are more attracted by attitude and overall charisma than purely by the physical, although certainly physical gets you in the door. My two cents.

Really important conversation, this.
For those of us who grew up feeling “thrown to the dogs” about sexuality, as in not feeling prepared and preyed on too early, we now find ourselves in committed relationships with men we may love, yet don’t necessarily feel like being sexual with often. The cycle of hurt feelings, guilt and retaliation is unhealthy, so we need to have discussions like this because otherwise we get nowhere.
First, as women we bear the scars not just of our own trauma histories, but those of our gender stretching back into time immemorial. Don’t mean to fall back on the denouncement of “patriarchy,” knowing it’s now an annoying buzz-idea, but resulted in hurt and humiliated of women and girls for countless generations. However, it also did that to men and boys, both the ones who were hard enough to “earn their stripes” in the male system and those who, because they couldn’t or wouldn’t, didn’t.
A system that hurts both it’s adherents and its disenfranchised clearly needs to go, but we can’t figure out what to replace it with because we are still clearly affected by the biological evolutionary realities that put it in place to begin with. The idea that bodies are gross, whether male or female, is a natural aversion to a thing that may bring up uncomfortable memories, personal and/or ancestral: nakedness, sexuality, predators. Disgust and ridicule can be a tool for self-protection, and a weapon for those who feel powerless.
As a woman, I feel insulted if shown little interest by men, and disgusted if shown too much. For those of us who bear the scars of our histories, sex has to be on our terms or not at all, terms that may change at any point. Our challenge, and it is a great challenge, is to find and keep partners who can or will accept this. If we ultimately know our own worth, our partner will too, and be able to make educated choices about what they can accept or put up with.
Calling anyone’s body gross is cruel, and humans are cruel. Human society has and always has been forged by cruelty. The larger cruelties result in these “smaller” ones. We shouldn’t denounce the symptoms without examining the causes.

“Most males bodies are not beautiful because most males don’t take care of themselves by eating right and exercising. ”

That’s a pretty narrow, media-centered taste you have there, Lance. I (gay male) happen not to find the gym rat WeHo ideal to be all that attractive at all. And don’t get me started on shaving and manscaping. It makes guys look like boiled rats.

I think there are a couple of things going on. One is that this celebration of the female body instead of the male body is recent – in classical times the male body was definitely considered more interesting from aan esthetic sense than the female. The female form was more a matter of sexual interst, and that could easily be stigamtized as a weakness. And yes, that’s a male-centered view, because that’s who was making all the statues after all.

Christianity was pretty explicitly anti-body from the beginning (and I think this counter-intuitively has more to do with its Hellenic side than the Judaic side.) When that started to turn around in the Renaissance, and then later in the Romantic period, the interest passed to the female form.

Also there’s the Fear of the Evil Penis going on. That panders to macho strutting about men being all dangerous, and rape fears just build on that.

For me the question of beauty is a little misplaced. Humans are not the most beautiful species, not by a long shot. Redwoods and gazelles and cats are beautiful. Humans – hair in all the wrong places, weird bipedalism, need for clothing in most climates – are not really very beautiful. Sexually attractive at best.

I totally agree with you in saying – ew, the man’s body is sexy, or it’s gross, or.. whatever – but I cannot handle it. I always had the same problem in expressing any lust or even in “how to treat the whole thing, how to handle the guy”. And one day, I started a new thing. It just came up to my mind, dunno why, but I started to do the same things, like stroking etc., as I did with girls before. And hey – the guy liked it. So I dunno. I try to treat the guys like girls now. I mean. I am totally not interested in their bodies, but love the person behind. So it’s a bit hard for me to become lustful for myself. But at least I am not shy or feel displaced beneath the guy anymore. They like the same things girls like. That’s my experience. I mean – we are all humans, aren’t we?
(Sorry for bad English, no native speaker…)